I have a few questions for people who are Pro-Choice
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Thread Topic: I have a few questions for people who are Pro-Choice
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I did not start this thread with the intent for arguments to happen, and I am also aware that most of the users here nowadays are underage so you might not really have that strong of an opinion on the topic of abortion because it might not be something that you've really thought about, but if you would like to give your opinion, then you're more than welcome to. But this thread is because I genuinely have questions because I don't quite understand why someone would be Pro-Choice and I would like for people who are to explain why they are for abortion and maybe we can have a civil discussion without cursing and yelling at each other. Hopefully everyone will be respectful towards each other regardless of whether they're Pro-Choice or Pro-Life.
Okay, let's first just exclude the argument of getting pregnant resulting from rape or incest because I can totally see how you would be Pro-Choice in those scenarios. I'm also not going to be talking about having an abortion when the mother's life is at risk because I understand why they would go through with an abortion then and that's a very heartbreaking situation. I'm going to be talking about adults who consented to having sex and got pregnant and then had an abortion (because that's the majority of abortions).
I guess I really don't understand how you can be supportive of killing a baby? Is it because you don't see it as a baby, or that it's even alive? To me, that doesn't make sense because I believe that life starts at conception because that's when new DNA begins forming. And if you kill a pregnant woman, then it's considered a double homicide, so then why is it not considered murder when the woman decides to end her own child?
I also don't really understand the whole "a woman should be able to do whatever she wants with her body" when it comes to abortion. Because I completely agree that everyone should be able to do whatever they want to their own body. However, it's not really their body? What about the body that's growing inside of them? Why do we suddenly think that it's okay for us to decide what to do with their bodies just because they're fetuses? Are they just not validated because they can't voice their opinion? If that's the case, then should it be okay to murder a baby once it's outside of the womb because it can't voice its opinion then either? Is it because when it's inside the womb, it can't fend for itself and relies on someone else? Because if that's the case, babies and children still rely on their parents to look after them for a very long time after being birthed.
The baby is only inside the womb for at most nine months. That's not even a full year. If being pregnant is really that awful, do you not realize that it's not going to last forever? If it's really that horrible and torturous to you, are you really that selfish that you can't give up at most nine months of your life in order to give someone years and years of their whole life? No one is telling them that they have to keep the child. If you don't want a kid, why not give it up for adoption? Is it because the adoption and foster care system is broken so they would be seen as having a lesser quality of life? If that's the case, why not just kill all the babies and infants and children who rely on other people that are in the system since they have such a lesser quality of life? Don't you think that everyone deserves a chance at life?
Basically, where do you draw the line from distinguishing between killing a baby that's in the womb vs killing a baby that's outside? And why do you see it that way? And how would you define a life?
Also, you don't have to answer all of these questions because reading it back, I realize that it's a lot. So yeah, just anything you would like to answer would be appreciated, thank you~ -
I guess I really don't understand how you can be supportive of killing a baby? Is it because you don't see it as a baby, or that it's even alive? To me, that doesn't make sense because I believe that life starts at conception because that's when new DNA begins forming.
The pro-choice movement is founded from the belief that a fetus is just a cluster of cells until a certain point. If we believed life began at conception, we wouldn't need to have this talk at all. The time period after which a fetus becomes a baby is widely disputed, and I'm definitely not an expert. The first result I found online suggests that a pregnancy isn't biologically viable until 22-24 weeks.
And if you kill a pregnant woman, then it's considered a double homicide, so then why is it not considered murder when the woman decides to end her own child?
To me, this is a matter of intent. If a woman intended to carry a pregnancy to term, it's a double homicide because that fetus was intended to become a life. In the case of an abortion, there was no intention for the fetus to ever become a human being.
I also don't really understand the whole "a woman should be able to do whatever she wants with her body" when it comes to abortion. Because I completely agree that everyone should be able to do whatever they want to their own body. However, it's not really their body? What about the body that's growing inside of them? Why do we suddenly think that it's okay for us to decide what to do with their bodies just because they're fetuses? Are they just not validated because they can't voice their opinion? If that's the case, then should it be okay to murder a baby once it's outside of the womb because it can't voice its opinion then either? Is it because when it's inside the womb, it can't fend for itself and relies on someone else? Because if that's the case, babies and children still rely on their parents to look after them for a very long time after being birthed.
I won't argue this point because I feel my first answer already explains why I disagree.
The baby is only inside the womb for at most nine months. That's not even a full year. If being pregnant is really that awful, do you not realize that it's not going to last forever? If it's really that horrible and torturous to you, are you really that selfish that you can't give up at most nine months of your life in order to give someone years and years of their whole life?
No one owes any amount of time in their life, or their bodily autonomy, to anyone, but especially not to a non-sentient cluster of cells.
No one is telling them that they have to keep the child. If you don't want a kid, why not give it up for adoption? Is it because the adoption and foster care system is broken so they would be seen as having a lesser quality of life? If that's the case, why not just kill all the babies and infants and children who rely on other people that are in the system since they have such a lesser quality of life?
I'm not trying to be rude, but this is an absolutely ridiculous argument. The foster system is broken, for sure, and there are a lot of downfalls to putting a baby through it. Choosing not to carry a pregnancy to term in order to avoid unnecessarily putting a child through that is not the same as infanticide.
Don't you think that everyone deserves a chance at life?
Yes, but again, I don't consider a fetus a human being for at least the first trimester, unless its host intends for it to be. -
First, I just want to say thank you for responding/giving me some insight of what you believe. I do have a couple more questions with what you said though.
Okay, so if you don't believe that life begins at conception, then do you think that it begins at that 22-24 week when the fetus becomes biologically viable? And then are you okay with abortions all the way up until that point? Which is well into the second trimester, almost the third (which I believe begins at the 27-28th week). The heart starts beating at 22 days, the first electrical brain activity begins at 5-6 weeks, and the spinal reflex which is what responds to pain starts to develop at 8 weeks. So I think that ripping apart a fetus to get it out especially after 8 weeks is just cruel because at that point, it can feel pain.
And then to further the one about the double homicide thing, (this is purely just cause I'm curious to what your opinion is and is obviously hypothetical) do you think that it should be considered a double homicide if the woman was pregnant but had yet to decide if she wanted an abortion or not?
For the foster care system, I would like you to explain why you think it's ridiculous. Because to me, it isn't. While yes, I won't disagree that the system is broken, but I do think that it's better than not living at all. I would rather someone have a chance at life than to not live at all. And I think I can kind of see where you're coming from because I think you see it as it being better to not live than to potentially go through all these hardships that the system might bring upon them. But I think because you can't say that 100% every single person who has been put up for adoption or put into foster care have all had horrible experiences, then I think that it's not right to terminate someone's life when they could be able to get adopted and raised in a loving and caring environment.
I just reread what you said about it being ridiculous, and I now see what you're saying, but I already typed that up and don't want to reword it, so I'm just going to further explain my point hereSo, I think why you think that it's a ridiculous argument is because you don't consider a fetus as being a living being, whereas I do. So to me, I think it's ridiculous to be okay with killing all of these babies that are inside the womb (because I see them as having lives) instead of giving them up for adoption because you think that they'll have a lesser quality of life. So that's why I was like "if the kids in the system have such a lesser quality of life, then why not just kill all of them too?" Because again, to me, life begins at conception, and obviously, no one should be killing anyone -
I would like to state this as my opinion. And so you would understand why I am Pro-Choice, and why others are Pro-Choice.
Personally, I believe there are three things that a mammal (in this case a baby), needs to survive. A brain, heart and lungs. After these are formed, the only reasonable reason for the abortion would be if the mother, or the fetus' life is in danger. (Which you agree with.)
Now, one of the biggest factors for women getting an abortion is financial instability. No money, meams the baby gets no care after birth. Or very minimal because of the lack of funds. As for govermental assistance, that isn't a guarentee. So, say you have a baby that you didn't want because of financial instability, but you were pressured into having a baby; now you are stuck with no means to provide for your baby, or yourself. (I'm using minimum wage to base my answers, because that's what most people get paid.)
This means that the mother is potentially seen as unfit and the child will get taken away. This leads me to the next point I'll be making.
[b]The American Foster Care System[/i]
A lot of people say, why won't you give up your child for adoption? There are already so many kids that don't get adopted as is. Sometimes, life is a lot worse for these children, because they have an unsteady life, the people they stay with are potentially abusive etc. (There are so many factors as to why I personally wouldn't even think of giving a child up to this system.) I won't get into them here.
Now, responding to what you stated.
At 8 weeks, a surgical abortion isn't even an option. They will give you a pill to take that shuts off nutrient flow. The next day, you take a pill to induce labor. A surgical abortion isn't an option until after twelve weeks. Ten in some states.
I would like to quote a source, "Last of all to mature is the cerebral cortex, which is responsible for most of what we think of as mental life–conscious experience, voluntary actions, thinking, remembering, and feeling. It has only begun to function around the time gestation comes to an end."
Gestation is around 40 weeks. Personally, no one would get an abortion that far along unless the mother, or child was at risk.
I do agree with My Own God about the Foster Care system. If you want to get into a friendly debate about that, we can. But, it takes away from the current situation we are discussing.
As for my conclusion, I personally don't think that we could ever come to a mutual agreement. Not because we can't discuss it, but because we have a diffferent opinion on when life starts. -
@hermit
Just to clarify, do you believe it's alright to have an abortion after 40 weeks? Meaning, after gestation? I know there are some states that allow you to abort the baby even if it's sticking halfway out in labor. -
Stardust1:
As I stated in my post above,
Personally, I believe there are three things that a mammal (in this case a baby), needs to survive. A brain, heart and lungs. After these are formed, the only reasonable reason for the abortion would be if the mother, or the fetus' life is in danger. -
It's interesting that you would choose those three things, considering they all fully develop at different times. The heart starts beating at 22 days (or 3 weeks), but I don't think it fully develops till week 8. Lungs don't fully develop till week 26 (so end of second trimester). And our first brain activity happened during week 5-6 but our brains don't fully develop until we're 25 years old. So I'm curious as to what you think the cut off date for abortion should be?
If you don't have the finances to care for a baby, then I think you should give it up for adoption. At least give your child a chance at living their own life. Also, where is the father in this situation? If he just up and left, then he sounds like a dick and someone you shouldn't be having sex with because he clearly can't be trusted. But I still don't think that gives someone the right to go and end their child's life because that's just punishing the child for the sins of the father
Children who get put up for adoption also have the potential to have a great life and be adopted into a loving family just as much as they have a potential to be put into a bad one. Just like in our own lives, you never know what's going to happen and what type of people you are going to come across. So why should we just automatically get to decide for other people whether they get the chance to experience life or not? Just because we think they might not have as good of a life as other people on this world? You never know who that child is going to turn out to be, but by ending it before it even gets the chance, you're already deciding that they're going to be nothing based off of reasoning that this would be better for them because you apparently can see the future so you already know that they're going to have a horrible life.
For the abortion up to full term comment, there are people that believe that a woman should be allowed to have an abortion up to those 40 weeks -
Please note that I said form, and not develop.
If I had to put a range that I agree with, I would say 12 weeks. I agree with it up to that amount of time because that is how long you have to get a medical abortion involving the pill. I will agree to a surgical abortion if the mother's life is at risk. (Please note, this is only if I were to have one personally. It is not my job to dictate what another woman's decisions are.)
As for your second paragraph, that is your opinion. It was also a hypothetical situation. Even if the father was in the picture, living off of minimum wage doesn't cover one person's living expenses, much less two grown adults, and a baby.
As for adoption, that is also your opinion. I don't believe that life starts at conception. For someone to have life, they have to be self sustaining.
I do not agree with a woman having an abortion at 40 weeks, UNLESS they both are going to die, or there are complications with her pregnancy. [Stillborn, Miscarrage etc.]
I would also like to point out that women get abortions for ectopic pregnancies, preeclampsia and other things that could cause death. [In that case, yes I would advocate for a woman having an abortion after twelve weeks.
The overall point I'm trying to make is, you can be Pro-Choice, and not get an abortion.
Overall, the impact does not lie on you, unless you are the one making the decision and carrying it out. -
i would like to specifically address the point of getting an abortion because you think the baby will have a bad life. assuming the baby is a few months in instead of just conceived, i feel that it's not your choice to decide if someone's life will be worth living. it wouldn't be ok for me to kill a homeless man because i think his life wont be worth living and as a society we discourage people from committing suicide because they themselves think their life isn't worth living.
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Faceless Knight:
I can see what you guys are saying. Please don't think that I don't understand, because I do. I am just basing my opinion off of the life I have lived so far. Off of what others have told me. I do see your point, but that doesn't sway my opinion.
I am understanding from your perspectives, just as Daughter of Apollo wanted to see it from someone who is Pro-Choice. -
I would also like to state, Adoption isn't a bad idea. There are just so many kids out there who already need homes. I wasn't saying it wasn't a good alternative, although I may have made it sound that way.
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* it
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I am personally against someone. Sort of quoting from Ben Shapiro here, but if a family member of yours is in a coma, and you KNOW they'll be a perfectly functional human being in 9 months, would you have them killed?
"But what about financial problems?"
Even if you have them, it doesn't justify killing a human being for your own benefit. Most of the time, getting pregnant is a result of the woman's actions.
For rape victims, I know it must be horrible to become pregnant with a person who violated your rights, but your child deserves rights too.
That child has your DNA, they are part of you. If you accidentally get pregnant and think "My mom's going to kill me!"
Just remember that the child inside of you ACTUALLY has to fear that. At least give the kid a chance. -
Fetuses actually don't have any sort of feelings or awareness in the womb. So the fetus inside you actually doesn't have to fear that, because it can't fear or feel anything.
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That's actually not entirely true after a certain point
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