Jesus DID exist!!!
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Thread Topic: Jesus DID exist!!!
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(Now this is copied from another site...just saysing!)
Hostile Non-Biblical Pagan Witnesses
There are a number of ancient classical accounts of Jesus from pagan Greek sources. These accounts are generally hostile to Christianity and try to explain away the miraculous nature of Jesus and the events that surrounded his life. Lets look at these hostile accounts and see what they tell us about Jesus:
Thallus (52AD)
Thallus is perhaps the earliest secular writer to mention Jesus and he is so ancient that his writings dont even exist anymore. But Julius Africanus, writing around 221AD does quote Thallus who had previously tried to explain away the darkness that occurred at the point of Jesus crucifixion:
On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun. (Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18:1)
If only more of Thallus record could be found, we would see that every aspect of Jesus life could be verified with a non-biblical source. But there are some things we can conclude from this account: Jesus lived, he was crucified, and there was an earthquake and darkness at the point of his crucifixion.
Pliny the Younger (61-113AD)
Early Christians are also described in secular history. Pliny the Younger, in a letter to the Roman emperor Trajan, describes the lifestyles of early Christians:
They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of foodbut food of an ordinary and innocent kind.
This EARLY description of the first Christians documents several facts: the first Christians believed that Jesus was GOD, the first Christians upheld a high moral code, and these early followers et regularly to worship Jesus.
Suetonius (69-140AD)
Suetonius was a Roman historian and annalist of the Imperial House under the Emperor Hadrian. His writings about Christians describe their treatment under the Emperor Claudius (41-54AD):
Because the Jews at Rome caused constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus (Christ), he (Claudius) expelled them from the city (Rome). (Life of Claudius, 25:4)
This expulsion took place in 49AD, and in another work, Suetonius wrote about the fire which destroyed Rome in 64 A.D. under the reign of Nero. Nero blamed the Christians for this fire and he punished Christians severely as a result:
Nero inflicted punishment on the Christians, a sect given to a new and mischievous religious belief. (Lives of the Caesars, 26.2)
There is much we can learn from Suetonius as it is related to the life of early Christians. From this very EARLY account, we know that Jesus had an immediate impact on his followers. They believed that Jesus was God enough to withstand the torment and punishment of the Roman Empire. Jesus had a curious and immediate impact on his followers, empowering them to die courageously for what they knew to be true.
Tacitus (56-120AD)
Cornelius Tacitus was known for his analysis and examination of historical documents and is among the most trusted of ancient historians. He was a senator under Emperor Vespasian and was also proconsul of Asia. In his Annals of 116AD, he describes Emperor Neros response to the great fire in Rome and Neros claim that the Christians were to blame:
Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.
In this account, Tacitus confirms for us that Jesus lived in Judea, was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and had followers who were persecuted for their faith in Christ.
Mara Bar-Serapion (70AD)
Sometime after 70AD, a Syrian philosopher named Mara Bar-Serapion, writing to encourage his son, compared the life and persecution of Jesus with that of other philosophers who were persecuted for their ideas. The fact that Jesus is known to be a real person with this kind of influence is important. As a matter of fact, Mara Bar-Serapion refers to Jesus as the Wise King:
What benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as judgment for their crime. Or, the people of Samos for burning Pythagoras? In one moment their country was covered with sand. Or the Jews by murdering their wise king?After that their kingdom was abolished. God rightly avenged these menThe wise kingLived on in the teachings he enacted.
From this account, we can add to our understanding of Jesus. We can conclude that Jesus was a wise and influential man who died for his beliefs. We can also conclude that his followers adopted these beliefs and lived lives that reflected them to the world in which they lived.
Phlegon (80-140AD)
In a manner similar to Thallus, Julius Africanus also mentions a historian named Phlegon who wrote a chronicle of history around 140AD. In this history, Phlegon also mentions the darkness surrounding the crucifixion in an effort to explain it:
Phlegon records that, in the time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth to the ninth hour. (Africanus, Chronography, 18:1)
Phlegon is also mentioned by Origen (an early church theologian and scholar, born in Alexandria):
Now Phlegon, in the thirteenth or fourteenth book, I think, of his Chronicles, not only ascribed to Jesus a knowledge of future events . . . but also testified that the result corresponded to His predictions. (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 14)
And with regard to the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar, in whose reign Jesus appears to have been crucified, and the great earthquakes which then took place (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 33)
Jesus, while alive, was of no assistance to himself, but that he arose after death, and exhibited the marks of his punishment, and showed how his hands had been pierced by nails. (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 59)
From these accounts, we can add something to our understand of Jesus and conclude that Jesus had the ability to accurately predict the future, was crucified under the reign of Tiberius Caesar and demonstrated his wounds after he was resurrected!
Lucian of Samosata: (115-200 A.D.)
Lucian was a Greek satirist who spoke sarcastically of Christ and Christians, but in the process, he did affirm that they were real people and never referred to them as fictional characters:
The Christians, you know, worship a man to this daythe distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account.You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they de -
Not saying I read this or anything. But a lot of people believe that Jesus existed, just that he was some whacko who people decided to kill. Frankly, I see where they're coming from on that view.
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I'm actually pretty sure Jesus was a real guy, just that he wasn't a holy figure. Admirable, yes, but not holy.
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Yeah, he was real.
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Yeah, Jesus was real, but the Bible exaggerates certain things. Miracles of course, but also the sermon on the Mount attracted a smaller crowd than what is said in the Bible.
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keznya Noviceyou guys say that but when Damascus is unhabitable you will regret it
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keznya Novicejesus could only be holy, crazy, or evil.hes not evil cause he healed people and encoureged good things.hes not crazy because....come on now SERIOUSLY?!?!?!? so that leaves holy. and quite frankly you guys could ruin young beleviers day im stronger even if i am just ten....and if you guys are gonna talk that kinda stuff you should know that is really rude and even offinsive to call it " Jesus did exsist " you guys are male so i dont even no why i should be explaining this to anyone
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Your reasoning is "come on... really?"
And what do you mean by "you guys are male"? -
keznya Noviceyou would know what im talking about if studied this besides i got on the wrong fourm i dint read the "religon"part now im gonna go back to role play.
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I have studied this. Thank you for the assumption. Now go back to roleplay
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"jesus could only be holy, crazy, or evil"
"holy, crazy, or evil"
besides the fact that a being could also be omnipotent, ignorant, confused, conflicted ect.
you're line of reasoning is that because he did things consistant with you're own beliefs he is therefore all good.
This is why I rebel from the modern moral scheme.
Christian morality holds that there's every noun can be assigned the value of good or evil, and even if this was enough to describe every single noun, it fails to acknowledge that what's good for a lion is not good for a deer, and what's good for a deer is not good for a lion. Is the deer evil for starving the lion? is the lion evil for preying on the deer?
It's a self contradictory system.
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